17 Comments
Mar 15Liked by Courtney Martin

Ah, love this, can't wait for his book! And to anyone reading: I highly recommend going through Garrett's Barnraiser's training - I joined a cohort in 2021 and learned so much. I wasn't organizing for any specific group or project at the time, but felt like so many seeds were planted within me from exposure to the curriculum and to Garrett's incredible teaching style. https://www.barnraisersproject.org/

Expand full comment
Mar 15Liked by Courtney Martin

So much love, Hannah!

Expand full comment
Mar 15Liked by Courtney Martin

Also, to answer the question posed by Courtney's intro ("what kind of dancer is he?"): Dangerous, a threat to himself and others, too many flailing limbs.

Expand full comment
author

Just as I hoped.

Expand full comment

And would expect

Expand full comment
Mar 15Liked by Courtney Martin

I appreciate your sharing Garrett's work again.

Just as it is problematic to have the goal of being thought the right kind of white, it is discouraging to know that many who really DO feel a religion of love are afraid to show themselves in public spaces that often seem to demand polarization. Lots of people are in hiding from public discourse at a time when our shared world could benefit from all hands on deck.

Expand full comment
Mar 15Liked by Courtney Martin

There are so, so many things that make it hard and scary to show up for one another, aren't there?

Expand full comment

At this point in my life I'm more of a cultural Quaker than a religious one, but part of why I just can't quit Quakerism completely is because it involves folks like Garrett. He's just the best-- thoughtful, loving, humble, challenging, and very, very funny. I'm a fan.

Expand full comment

People do not talk about cultural Quakerism enough, lol. Love getting to share a weirdo faith and/or quasi-faith community with you, Asha.

Expand full comment

Yes! DD

Expand full comment

Love, love, LOVE this, @CourtneyMartin! Thanks for sharing this brilliant and compassionate mind. And thanks to @GarrettBucks for your work, clarity, and courage.

Expand full comment

Love this; thanks for introducing me to Garrett's work. Question (for both of you, but Garrett in particular, if he's still in these comments): do you think our task is ultimately to abolish whiteness? If not, what are we trying to preserve? If so... what do we replace it with? (These questions are near and dear to my heart these days, and I agree with the direction Garrett is going in this interview but leaves me wondering what follows). Thank you!

Expand full comment

Sure! I've always been compelled personally by that end goal, since Whiteness was invented as a system of domination. The one offer I'll make (as a "yes and" to that language, from Ignatieff and others)... I think that it's possible to align towards that end goal while recognizing that we've had hundreds of years of over a billion of us living a shared experience of being White, and I don' think we end up with a world where Whiteness as a social category of domination ceases to exist if we don't first connect with each other about the really messed up experience of being White.

Expand full comment

that resonates; thanks for taking the time to reflect and respond. I have found myself wondering whether people will be willing to let go of whiteness or do that grappling, without a positive vision of what we are working toward. I fear that without such a vision, people will avoid doing the hard work necessary because it will feel like needless suffering (if i'm going to walk across the coals, what's on the other side?) I love the invitation into the work, and i'm heartened that more people are choosing it... and i fear we leave too many behind without a more compelling vision of the liberation that awaits beyond domination (and identities predicated on domination)

Expand full comment

ok, post is up, trying to tease out this idea; I'd love to hear how it lands! https://citizenstout.substack.com/p/what-comes-after-whiteness

Expand full comment

Ha! That’s funny because my pastor used to ask, “do you want to be right or in a relationship?” And it has also stuck with me over the years (especially as someone who really, really likes to be right!) I like who I am a lot better when I land on the relationship side of things though- such a good reminder!

Expand full comment

I love that line too!

Expand full comment